User supplied b-h curve and weird flux density results

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Nick_99
Posts: 49
Joined: 12 Jul 2023, 10:07
Antispam: Yes

User supplied b-h curve and weird flux density results

Post by Nick_99 »

Hi all,

I have a simple sim setup which consists of a cube inside of a region. The region has a uniform H-field. The cube inside the region has a user supplied b-h curve (Carpenter Silicon Core Iron A, 1066C Annealed). I took the b-h data and fitted a spline to it in MATLAB. I then generated a dataset from the spline function which is being used in Elmer.

The original B-H data can be seen below.

Code: Select all

0.000000 0.000000
0.076138 27.383404
0.142890 31.395700
0.217980 36.490250
0.305520 42.403651
0.393040 48.938553
0.484670 55.704230
0.580450 63.402555
0.684550 72.654232
0.776130 81.009866
0.855280 90.965008
0.917770 100.076628
0.976140 110.875291
1.051100 124.506912
1.126200 144.711632
1.193000 168.210859
1.251500 195.553679
1.305800 225.793118
1.347700 260.751501
1.393800 309.508618
1.431600 367.417144
1.469400 436.172079
1.499000 525.028284
1.524400 636.388998
1.541400 745.354429
1.562600 897.315569
1.583900 1095.145163
1.609500 1402.632513
1.626700 1771.951559
1.648000 2223.076245
1.665200 2713.512202
1.682300 3335.012255
1.703600 4042.615132
1.720600 4767.565898
1.737700 5779.393448
The data generated from the spline can be seen below.

Code: Select all

0 0
0.001 0.653880804244234
0.002 1.29802864894573
0.003 1.93252047219268
0.004 2.55743321207331
0.005 3.17284380667582
0.006 3.77882919408843
0.007 4.37546631239933
0.008 4.96283209969673
0.009 5.54100349406885
0.01 6.1100574336039
0.011 6.67007085639007
0.012 7.22112070051559
0.013 7.76328390406865
0.014 8.29663740513747
0.015 8.82125814181026
0.016 9.33722305217522
0.017 9.84460907432055
0.018 10.3434931463345
0.019 10.8339522063052
0.02 11.3160631923209
0.021 11.7899030424699
0.022 12.2555486948402
0.023 12.7130770875202
0.024 13.1625651585981
0.025 13.604089846162
0.026 14.0377280883001
0.027 14.4635568231007
0.028 14.881652988652
0.029 15.2920935230421
0.03 15.6949553643594
0.031 16.0903154506919
0.032 16.478250720128
0.033 16.8588381107557
0.034 17.2321545606634
0.035 17.5982770079392
0.036 17.9572823906714
0.037 18.3092476469481
0.038 18.6542497148575
0.039 18.9923655324879
0.04 19.3236720379275
0.041 19.6482461692645
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0.043 20.2775050619834
0.044 20.5823436995417
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0.049 22.0117063228508
0.05 22.2791513012336
0.051 22.5406332863958
0.052 22.7962292164257
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0.065 25.618352119907
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0.068 26.148042078885
0.069 26.3153465991611
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I then set the material for the cube to use the supplied B-H curve. Before I ran the simulation, I used the B-H curve to see what result I should expect from Elmer. If the H-field is 1000A/m, then I'd expect the resulting B-field in the cube to be ~1.5T according to the material's B-H plot (see image below).
Carpenter Silicon Core Iron A 1066C Anneal.png
(11.79 KiB) Not downloaded yet

However, I'm seeing values significantly smaller than what I'm expecting (see image below).
1000.png
(27.83 KiB) Not downloaded yet

I don't think Elmer is the issue because the student version of Ansys Maxwell is also producing results that are in close agreement with Elmer.

I thought maybe that my cube was too small so some other effects might be at work. So, I made the cube huge (1.6m x 1.2m x 2m) but I still get the same results.

Could some please elaborate as to why the results are like this and aren't matching what I'm expecting from the B-H curve?

My case.sif
case.sif
(4.24 KiB) Downloaded 75 times

My gmsh geometry

Code: Select all

// Gmsh project created on Tue Aug 15 10:25:09 2023
SetFactory("OpenCASCADE");

lm = 5.0; // cube mesh size
lr = 30.0; // region mesh size

region_size = 300;

//+
Point(1) = {100, 60, 80, lm};
//+
Point(2) = {100, 60, -80, lm};
//+
Point(3) = {-100, 60, -80, lm};
//+
Point(4) = {-100, 60, 80, lm};
//+
Point(5) = {-100, -60, 80, lm};
//+
Point(6) = {-100, -60, -80, lm};
//+
Point(7) = {100, -60, -80, lm};
//+
Point(8) = {100, -60, 80, lm};
//+
Line(1) = {4, 3};
//+
Line(2) = {3, 2};
//+
Line(3) = {2, 1};
//+
Line(4) = {1, 4};
//+
Line(5) = {4, 5};
//+
Line(6) = {5, 6};
//+
Line(7) = {6, 3};
//+
Line(8) = {6, 7};
//+
Line(9) = {7, 2};
//+
Line(10) = {7, 8};
//+
Line(11) = {8, 1};
//+
Line(12) = {8, 5};
//+
Curve Loop(1) = {7, 2, -9, -8};
//+
Plane Surface(1) = {1};
//+
Curve Loop(2) = {12, -5, -4, -11};
//+
Plane Surface(2) = {2};
//+
Curve Loop(3) = {6, 7, -1, 5};
//+
Plane Surface(3) = {3};
//+
Curve Loop(4) = {12, 6, 8, 10};
//+
Plane Surface(4) = {4};
//+
Curve Loop(5) = {10, 11, -3, -9};
//+
Plane Surface(5) = {5};
//+
Curve Loop(6) = {1, 2, 3, 4};
//+
Plane Surface(6) = {6};
//+
Surface Loop(1) = {5, 4, 2, 3, 1, 6};
//+
Volume(1) = {1};
//+
Point(9) = {region_size, region_size, region_size, lr};
//+
Point(10) = {-region_size, region_size, region_size, lr};
//+
Point(11) = {-region_size, region_size, -region_size, lr};
//+
Point(12) = {region_size, region_size, -region_size, lr};
//+
Point(13) = {region_size, -region_size, -region_size, lr};
//+
Point(14) = {region_size, -region_size, region_size, lr};
//+
Point(15) = {-region_size, -region_size, region_size, lr};
//+
Point(16) = {-region_size, -region_size, -region_size, lr};
//+
Line(13) = {15, 16};
//+
Line(14) = {16, 13};
//+
Line(15) = {13, 14};
//+
Line(16) = {14, 15};
//+
Line(17) = {15, 10};
//+
Line(18) = {10, 9};
//+
Line(19) = {9, 14};
//+
Line(20) = {9, 12};
//+
Line(21) = {12, 13};
//+
Line(22) = {11, 12};
//+
Line(23) = {10, 11};
//+
Line(24) = {11, 16};
//+
Curve Loop(7) = {17, 18, 19, 16};
//+
Plane Surface(7) = {7};
//+
Curve Loop(8) = {24, 14, -21, -22};
//+
Plane Surface(8) = {8};
//+
Curve Loop(9) = {13, 14, 15, 16};
//+
Plane Surface(9) = {9};
//+
Curve Loop(10) = {13, -24, -23, -17};
//+
Plane Surface(10) = {10};
//+
Curve Loop(11) = {15, -19, 20, 21};
//+
Plane Surface(11) = {11};
//+
Curve Loop(12) = {18, 20, -22, -23};
//+
Plane Surface(12) = {12};
//+
Surface Loop(2) = {7, 10, 9, 8, 11, 12};
//+
Surface Loop(3) = {2, 4, 3, 1, 6, 5};
//+
Volume(2) = {2, 3};
//+
Physical Surface("front", 25) = {7};
//+
Physical Surface("back", 26) = {8};
//+
Physical Surface("left", 27) = {10};
//+
Physical Surface("right", 28) = {11};
//+
Physical Surface("top", 29) = {12};
//+
Physical Surface("bottom", 30) = {9};
//+
Physical Volume("material", 31) = {1};
//+
Physical Volume("region", 32) = {2};
//+
Coherence;
Kind regards,
Nick
raback
Site Admin
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Re: User supplied b-h curve and weird flux density results

Post by raback »

Hi Nick,

I think there is a difference whether you enforce the field directly on the cube, or to the vacuum surrounding the cube. Basicly you have Curl(H)=0, or Curl (nu(|B|) Curl A)=0. When you solve for A it is essential to consider the BC's at the interface (continuity of tangential component of H). Intuition easily suggests that the BC's don't matter when the problem is big enough but you really cannot omit them.

We studied similar problem with a cylindrical magnet that was surrounded by a cylindrical coil. There you can find an analytical solution for A(r). In the end there was very good agreement with the code.

-Peter
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Re: User supplied b-h curve and weird flux density results

Post by Nick_99 »

Hi Peter,

Wow I would not have thought of that in a thousand years :lol: Thank you so much for your time!! I will have a look at those BCs!!

Cheers,
Nick
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Re: User supplied b-h curve and weird flux density results

Post by Nick_99 »

Hi Peter,

Your suggestion about generating the H-field at the surface of the material with the B-H property works very well. Thank you very much!

Unfortunately I can't seem to get the BCs right for the surface of that material so that I can generate the H-field far away from the surface of the material. Would you happen to have a link to that case you mentioned or could you perhaps tell me which BC parameter(s) I should use?

Cheers,
Nick
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Re: User supplied b-h curve and weird flux density results

Post by raback »

Hi

The correct internal BC's are included automatically in the formulation in an implicit manner. However, if you try to solve an analytic reference solution that's is something to consider.

This sounds like some nonlinear control problem where you tune external field to have desired one in some selected point. Unfortunately there is not really any example of this and maybe not an idea to follow...

-Peter
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Re: User supplied b-h curve and weird flux density results

Post by Nick_99 »

Hi Peter,

Ok, thank you very much.

I'm not actually simulating a control problem :P I'm using Elmer to model magnetic field reversals recorded in layers of rock (and Elmer is working quite well so far). I'm going to be measuring the magnetic field of about ~2km of rock drill core samples samples and Elmer is helping drive the design of the measurement system. I'm interested in simulating B-fields as I will use them to include Earth's magnetic field which will add an induced magnetisation to my rocks.

On that note, is it possible to generate the field at an arbitrary angle from a surface? Could I do something like this for the BC:

Code: Select all

Magnetic Flux Density 1 = B_magnitude * cos(theta)
Magnetic Flux Density 2 = B_magnitude * sin(theta)
Magnetic Flux Density 3 = 0.0
Or would I have to generate the magnetic field on an angled plane? This is interesting to me because Earth's field angle is different depending where you are in the world.

Cheers,
Nick
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Re: User supplied b-h curve and weird flux density results

Post by Nick_99 »

Hi Peter,

I just wanted some clarification with regards to your previous post.
raback wrote: 21 Aug 2023, 19:09 Hi

The correct internal BC's are included automatically in the formulation in an implicit manner. However, if you try to solve an analytic reference solution that's is something to consider.

This sounds like some nonlinear control problem where you tune external field to have desired one in some selected point. Unfortunately there is not really any example of this and maybe not an idea to follow...

-Peter

So does this mean it is not possible for me to run a simulation of an object with a B-H curve applied to it and apply an external H-field (or B-field) and view the induced magnetisation? If this is the case, can you suggest any options that can achieve this functionality or would I need to implement this functionality in the code myself? I have been fiddling with Elmer but can't seem to make any progress in this area and being able to have an external field inducing a field in my B-H materials is quite an important component of my research :(

Even if I just set the permeability of the material to some constant value, the induced field does not match my analytical solution using B = mu * H.

At the end of the day, all I really need is something that says if a magnetic field of X magnitude is passing through a material with a non-linear permeability, use the B-H curve to determine the permeability for that field strength and calculate the induced field. In other words, is there maybe a way I can explicitly supply a list of permeability values corresponding to different field strengths/flux densities?

Kind regards,
Nick
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Re: User supplied b-h curve and weird flux density results

Post by raback »

Hi Nick,

To my understanding you want to have desired field H on your specimen but you can only apply field outside of it and Maxwell's equations don't make this easy. It is similar to wanting to define a heat flux on a specimen surrounded by material of different electric conductivity.

When you say "the induced field does not match my analytical solution using B = mu * H" is the H and B in your analytic solution inside the specimen? Or have you derived an analytical solution where you in the same way have B or H defined as a boundary condition of the full system?

So I was not joking when I talked about control problem. Maybe you need the applied field to be a function of the measured field. The relationship is monotonic so I guess finding a feedback mechanism that converges would not be too hard.

Or maybe I don't fully understand this...

-Peter
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Re: User supplied b-h curve and weird flux density results

Post by Nick_99 »

Hi Peter,

Thanks very much. I will look into your suggestion about the feedback mechanism.

I have one last question I was hoping you could help me resolve. I just have a cube with a non-linear B-H material applied to it. There is a magnetic flux density being generated at the front and back of the cube's boundaries. Unfortunately, I'm having problems with trying to get the system to converge. If I replace the B-H curve in the material settings with just a relative permeability, the solution converges fine. I think I just have an issue with the settings for the non-linear system. I have tried fiddling with the relaxation factors but am not having any success. I have also tried varying the mesh size but am also having no luck. I have used this specific B-H curve in other simulations and they work fine so I don't think its an issue with that data.

Here's the case.sif

Code: Select all

Header
  CHECK KEYWORDS Warn
  Mesh DB "." "."
  Include Path ""
  Results Directory ""
End

Simulation
  Max Output Level = 5
  Coordinate System = Cartesian
  Coordinate Mapping(3) = 1 2 3
  Simulation Type = Steady state
  Steady State Max Iterations = 1
  Output Intervals(1) = 1
  Solver Input File = case.sif
  Post File = case.vtu
End

Constants
  Gravity(4) = 0 -1 0 9.82
  Stefan Boltzmann = 5.670374419e-08
  Permittivity of Vacuum = 8.85418781e-12
  Permeability of Vacuum = 1.25663706e-6
  Boltzmann Constant = 1.380649e-2
  Unit Charge = 1.6021766e-19
End

Body 1
  Target Bodies(1) = 1
  Name = "Body 1"
  Equation = 1
  Material = 1
End

Solver 1
  Equation = MgDyn
  Procedure = "MagnetoDynamics" "WhitneyAVSolver"
  Exec Solver = Always
  Optimize Bandwidth = True
  Steady State Convergence Tolerance = 1.0e-5
  Nonlinear System Convergence Tolerance = 1.0e-6
  Nonlinear System Max Iterations = 500
  Nonlinear System Newton After Iterations = 5
  Nonlinear System Newton After Tolerance = 1.0e-4
  Nonlinear System Relaxation Factor = 0.5
  Steady State Relaxation Factor = Real 0.9
  Linear System Solver = Iterative
! Bicgstabl is usually performing well for AV solver
  Linear System Iterative Method = BiCGStabl
  Linear System Max Iterations = 500
  Linear System Convergence Tolerance = 1.0e-10
  BiCGstabl polynomial degree = 4
! We cannot use ILU since vector potential is not uniquely defined
  Linear System Preconditioning = none
  Linear System ILUT Tolerance = 1.0e-3
  Linear System Abort Not Converged = False
  Linear System Residual Output = 10
  Linear System Precondition Recompute = 1
End

Solver 2
  Equation = MgDynPost
  Calculate Magnetic Field Strength = True
  Procedure = "MagnetoDynamics" "MagnetoDynamicsCalcFields"
  Exec Solver = Always
  Optimize Bandwidth = True
  Steady State Convergence Tolerance = 1.0e-5
  Linear System Solver = Iterative
  Linear System Iterative Method = BiCGStab
  Linear System Max Iterations = 500
  Linear System Convergence Tolerance = 1.0e-10
  Linear System Preconditioning = ILU0
  Linear System Abort Not Converged = False
  Linear System Residual Output = 10
  Linear System Precondition Recompute = 1

  Calculate Nodal Fields = False
  Calculate Elemental Fields = True

! Perform the averaging within this solver
  Average Within Materials = Logical True
End

Solver 3
  Exec Solver = after timestep
  Equation = "ResultOutput"
  Procedure = "ResultOutputSolve" "ResultOutputSolver"
  Output File Name = f_b-h
  Vtu format = True
  Discontinuous Bodies = True
  ! bloated alternative for the above maintaining all discontinuities
  ! Discontinuous Galerkin = True 
  Save Geometry Ids = True
  ! use this only in conjunction with quadratic mesh   
  Save Linear Elements = True  
  Save Bulk Only = True 
  ! Save Boundaries Only = True 

  ! Enable saving of different parts to different files
  Vtu Part Collection = False
End

Equation 1
  Name = "Equation 1"
  Active Solvers(3) = 1 2 3
End

Material 1
  Name = "B-H-Curve"
  Electric Conductivity = Real 0.0
  Relative Permittivity = Real 1.0
  
  H-B Curve = Variable "dummy"
  Real Cubic Monotone
     INCLUDE b-h-curve.dat 
  End 
End

Boundary Condition 1
  Target Boundaries(1) = 1
  Name = "BC_FRONT"
  Magnetic Flux Density 1 = Real 1
End

Boundary Condition 2
  Target Boundaries(1) = 2
  Name = "BC_BACK"
  Magnetic Flux Density 1 = Real 1
End

Boundary Condition 3
  Target Boundaries(1) = 5
  Name = "BC_LEFT"
  Magnetic Flux Density {n} = Real 0.0
End

Boundary Condition 4
  Target Boundaries(1) = 6
  Name = "BC_RIGHT"
  Magnetic Flux Density {n} = Real 0.0
End

Boundary Condition 5
  Target Boundaries(2) = 3 4 
  Name = "BC_TOP_AND_BOTTOM"
  Magnetic Flux Density {n} = Real 0.0
End
Cheers,
Nick
Attachments
model.msh
(290.36 KiB) Downloaded 48 times
model.geo
(124 Bytes) Downloaded 46 times
b-h-curve.dat
(3.75 KiB) Downloaded 53 times
raback
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Re: User supplied b-h curve and weird flux density results

Post by raback »

Hi

Just some quick observations:

With magnetostatics you rarely achieve 1e-10 tolerance for linear system. Usually ~1e-7 should be fine. You can study the results with different choices. BiCGStab(l) is one of the more robust. For that you can say "linear system robust = true" which makes it even more robust. You might try "vanka" as preconditioner too.

Do not use "steady state relaxation factor" unless you have coupled system of equations and iterate among them.

-Peter
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